Curse

Chthon · Jan 16, 2012, 02:45 AM // 02:45

What the AL -> HP Update Did to PvE Difficulty

The short answer: Most of PvE got easier, while a few sections got harder.

The long answer:

As everyone who wasn't living under a rock knows by now, the 1/5/2012 update reduced monster armor and increased monster health.

From a player-side, skill-by-skill perspective, what happened was that:
(1) Armor-ignoring skills all got weaker, since they have to chew through a bigger pile of health with the same DPS; and
(2) Armor-respecting skills seem to have gotten stronger, since they do more DPS now, even though they have to chew through a bigger pile of health. (I say "seem" because we don't have the precise numbers on either change, but observations indicate that armor-respecting damage is killing things faster than before.)

Obviously, this encourages player builds to shift towards armor-respecting damage. (Or, to be more exact, good player builds have shifted/are shifting from heavily focused on armor-ignoring damage with a little bit of armor-respecting damage mixed in (mostly in the form of base damage) to a mixture of armor-ignoring and armor-respecting damage that uses the most potent skills of each. Bad player builds have always mixed damage types without being aware that it mattered, and they continue to do so.)

A slightly broader monster-by-monster view is more revealing:

For purposes of looking at the impact of this update on PvE difficulty, we can divide monsters into three classes.

Class 1: Monsters with no effective ability to resist armor-respecting damage.
The vast majority of monsters in GW had just one method of resisting armor-respecting damage -- inherently high armor -- and now they have none. These monsters die faster now because anything the player throws at them is going to work. (Even builds that are heavily focused on armor-ignoring damage usually contain enough collateral armor-respecting damage that they seem to come out ahead vs. class 1 monsters.) So, most of PvE got easier.

That's the main outcome. The remainder of this post is looking at the exceptions to this general rule.

(Less importantly, monsters also became more vulnerable to unfocused/collateral damage. Previously, if there were a couple of bone horrors off in the corner hitting a monster (or Koss, who's about as smart as a bone horror, etc.), they weren't hardly going to scratch it until someone got around to putting Barbs on the monster (or OoU/EBSoH on the horrors). Now, the minions actually hurt things. The same goes for misguided hero auto-attacks, wand shots, secondary damage on utility skills, and many other things that just weren't part of the team build's "directed damage engine." They used to not matter at all; now they matter a little.)

Class 2: Monsters with some effective ability to resist armor-respecting damage.
These are monsters that have some way to resist your armor-respecting damage. It could be that they still have a high inherent AL, or it could be that they use skills to boost armor, block, etc. The impact is this: The armor-respecting damage that players are now packing works poorly or not at all since it's resisted; but armor-ignoring damage also works less well than before since it's running face-first into the hp buff; and, to make matters worse, player builds have less armor-ignoring damage to bring to bear since they changed their builds.

An example might help: How do you deal with a monster using Kinetic Armor (assuming you cannot interrupt or strip it)? Old builds didn't care about Kinetic Armor because you were killing it with, say, Barbs+Orders+SoH. New builds would like to kill it with, say, Double Dragon, but can't. Assuming your build still has Barbs+Orders+SoH, you can kill it that way, but it will take longer because of the higher hp. Of course, your build probably doesn't still have all three of those, since you needed to make space for Double Dragon.

The overall result is that class 2 monsters take longer to kill than before.

Class 3: Class 2 monsters backed by effective healing.
This is where the stuff hits the fan.

The root of the problem is that the added second or two of survivability these guys have means an added second or two for the monster healer to get its act together and throw a heal, which it usually manages to do. So we've gone from spiking out a monster faster than it could be healed (or healed more than once) to trying to out-pressure a healer with such a ridiculously high attribute spec that it can refill the whole bar (or come close) in a single cast.

Example: Go into Slaver's, find a Wretched Wolf mob with a Modnir Priest and a Stone Summit Defender, now try to kill a single Wretched Wolf just by pounding on it. It used to be pretty easy; now it it simply can't be done. (Eventually you'll decide to disrupt the healers, overwhelm them with AoE, or strip the Wolf -- but that's not the point. The point is that the Wolf is now impossible to spike and the pressure battle is now impossible to win, unless you do one of those things.)

The end result is that class 3 monsters are a lot harder than they used to be. That's not to say that there aren't ways to compensate, but the mere fact that you must compensate should be evidence that they've gotten harder.

---

One other difficulty-related issue arising out of this update is that certain skills have been buffed or nerfed for monster use.

The obvious buffs/nerfs were anticipated before the update: sacrifice skills (nerfed), comparative health skills (victorious buffed, envy nerfed), PS-like skills (nefed), and health threshhold conditional effects (generally buffed).

The most significant buffs are relatively non-obvious:
(1) Monster healing is globally buffed to the extent that it used to overheal and now it doesn't so much. (Monsters are finally getting some use out of their last 3 or 4 levels of Healing Prayers/Resto.)
(2) For class 2 and 3 monsters, rezzing is buffed since they come back up with more hp and are harder to knock back down quickly and easily.

One other thing I noticed late is that Spirit Bond was buffed.

---

Postscript: Slavers.
Xeno asked why I said (elsewhere) that I think Slavers is harder now than before. Basically, it's a perfect example of class 3 monster mobs.
To put the challenge briefly: The Stone Summit Defenders can stall your offense better than they could before (particularly with Shield of Regen), and that buys enough time for the Priest (Summit or Modniir) to slap what is basically a full heal on the target.
A more complete list of skills down there that are now a lot more problematic than before:

Wretched Wolf - Feigned Neutrality, Dark Escape (very hard to finish off, survives long enough to get healed)
Stone Summit Defender - Shield of Regen (makes it hard to finish off whatever you're trying to kill, makes it survive long enough to get healed), Guardian, (same but less so), Spirit Bond (triggers more often) everything overheals less in general
Modniir Priest - everything overheals less, WoH is particularly buffed in this respect
Stone Summit Priest - everything overheals less
Stone Summit Warder - Ward Against Melee (makes foes somewhat harder to finish off, live long enough to get healed)
Stone Summit Dominator/Stone Summit Blasphemer - Renew Life (50% hp is more than before.)
Stone Summit Dreamer - Resurrection Chant (dreamer's current hp is more than before)
Stone Summit Cleaver - Signet of Return (rezzed allies pop back up with more hp)
Stone Summit Summoner - Taste of Death (overheals less, somewhat offset by BotM costing a lot more hp)

Slavers is by no means impossible; it's just harder than it used to be and needs some different solutions than a lot of things that used to work.

Relyk · Jan 16, 2012, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Enemy healers have a harder time after the change because you deal more pressure. Look at the effects of the Massive Damage flux. I'd argue Stone Summit groups are easier to out-pressure and kill now based on my romp through Forgewright HM.

turbo234 · Jan 16, 2012, 10:15 AM // 10:15

i don't see a difference whatsoever. i still faceroll through HM. and i just vq'd areas with stone summit it was no different than every other area.

Venganza · Jan 16, 2012, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Rather than your obtuse musings, I would simply say, GW was far too piss easy before the update, and just as piss easy now, even slavers.

Xenomortis · Jan 16, 2012, 11:04 AM // 11:04

I'm less convinced of this conclusion. The argument is fine, but the conclusion seems a little exaggerated; I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal. I guess, to be certain, I'll have to take a few more trips into Slaver's.

As for Spirit Bond; yes it's trivially true that it's been buffed, but in practice? What armour respecting skills did you bring before the buff that hit close to the margin on Spirit Bond? Which of those skills do you now bring? The only reasonable change I can see here is a physical now hitting for over 60 with buffs where he was hitting for below now, but hits above 60 were not uncommon even before this update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyk

Enemy healers have a harder time after the change because you deal more pressure. Look at the effects of the Massive Damage flux. I'd argue Stone Summit groups are easier to out-pressure and kill now based on my romp through Forgewright HM.

A couple of things on this;
1. In PvP, a Monk's healing spells tend not to overheal unless they're playing badly.
2. In PvP, a Monk has a limited energy pool; they don't want to have to Infuse often and they want good time and energy efficiency.
3. Damage was increased by a lot more.

In PvE, the first one depends on a lot; their healing skills are only 'improved', if they frequently overhealed a lot, otherwise they're obviously less effective.
However, I think it's often agreed that energy never seems to be a problem for the enemy AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo234

i don't see a difference whatsoever. i still faceroll through HM. and i just vq'd areas with stone summit it was no different than every other area.

The Stone Summit in Slaver's Exile are quite different to the Stone Summit elsewhere; they can actually kill you. Try it some time.

Xsiriss · Jan 16, 2012, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

A couple of things on this;
1. In PvP, a Monk's healing spells tend not to overheal unless they're playing badly.
2. In PvP, a Monk has a limited energy pool; they don't want to have to Infuse often and they want good time and energy efficiency.
3. Damage was increased by a lot more.

This, you can't compares the effects of the Massive Damage flux to the HM changes. We're dealing with super buffed attributes and energy pools, as well as a primary focus on healing rather than protection (only late game mobs ever seem to have decent prot). Things got a bit harder to kill but if you're running a fairly balanced team that doesn't rely on rolling you won't see much difference.

Kunder · Jan 16, 2012, 12:57 PM // 12:57

I'm not seeing that big of a change, even in Slavers. Perhaps if I was running AP and relied 95% on single target spike damage it would be much worse, but AoE spam on half the mob grouped up still wraps up groups nicely even if healers manage to get a spell off on one of them.

Windwalker64 · Jan 16, 2012, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Have any of you tried to do kilroys dungeon in HM since the update?
It's hell.The combo punch+upercut doesn't even put a dent in the new and improved stone summit I hate to think what it did to the cantha courier crisis

The Hp of foes needs to be nerfed in the solo missions asap

drowze · Jan 16, 2012, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Haven't done slavers in HM yet, since the update. But I do notice healers having just that bit of extra time to throw on a big heal in HM. I have wondered what that would do in harder areas... but I guess we just need to adjust our builds/tactics a bit and it will be /faceroll yet again.

dasmitchies · Jan 16, 2012, 04:30 PM // 16:30

The verdict is in; the update was worthless in pve. I only change 1 skill on 8 bars, I took ancestor's rage off of my rit and replaced it with a heal. That wolf you speak of? Try using 20 minions. Minions do a LOT more damage in groups and have the same benefits as before. Solo farming is a bit slower but with 8 man hero teams I am killing mobs faster and still use only AL ignoring skills. You are right, many monsters AL was reduced but the change is laughable. So many SC and farm builds take longer . However, autoattack now actually does some damage in HM and if you abuse that mechanic the game just hit the easy button. Eles may storm RA now before they are nerfed again but they are still useless PC. On a slightly different note, HM ele foes are ridiculous now. Try frostmaws in HM and see how abusive 8 HM snowmen are now.

WarcryOfTruth · Jan 16, 2012, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmitchies

So many SC and farm builds take longer.

I fail to see why this particular comment is an issue, this was a goal they've wanted to achieve for a long time now. Sure, I suppose many people are disappointed by it, but once it was announced that HM Health would be increased, the first thing that should have been thought of was "Shadow Form's losing combat effectiveness"

On topic: I don't think it was meant as a difficulty change, just a mechanic change, and making areas either easier or harder, was just an unavoidable side effect. Overall, I haven't noticed anything different, I wish the armor changes and health changes were far more substantial

Edit: I take that back, there is ONE thing I've found. Ancestor's Rage, now it no longer ignores armor, but I've seen that it can do MORE damage now. Spirit Rift for Cracked Armor, DwG for 20% Penetration, I've seen it cause up to 140 damage to HM foes, even higher level ones, like Peacekeepers or Mursaat.

Relyk · Jan 16, 2012, 05:49 PM // 17:49

I was only using Massive Damage as an analogy but if that's what you want to focus on, ok. I'm well aware of the limitless resources of casters. The term pressure is based on how fast they can heal, not how much energy they have. Damage gets much more spread out in Stone Summit groups, I've found it's much easier to spike or train down healers (and melee fortunately). If you found that the extra health gives too much time for the healers to redbar, I'd suggest looking at it again because teams deal enough damage both before and after the update for this to be unlikely to occur. You only see redbarring on bad pulls where your damage gets spread unevenly. It should be easier to get kills on healers than it was before.

I do agree on Spirit Bond however, melee autoattacks hit under 60 with Strength of Honor. I'm pretty sure you still hit under 60 with Cracked Armor. You will hit over 60 consistently with attacks skills now. In general, I didn't notice a significant difference that you would expect but such observations are biased by hero setup.

Mireles · Jan 16, 2012, 10:58 PM // 22:58

This shouldn't surprise anyone that has been playing since the very beginning, this game has been being made easier since john stumme took over and is now easy as eating pie... the vast majority of this game, you can stick a blank skill bar on yourself... as long as u have 7 heroes with cookie cutter builds u can still walk threw this game, just like before.

peter81 · Jan 17, 2012, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windwalker64

Have any of you tried to do kilroys dungeon in HM since the update?
It's hell.The combo punch+upercut doesn't even put a dent in the new and improved stone summit I hate to think what it did to the cantha courier crisis

The Hp of foes needs to be nerfed in the solo missions asap

I cant do Canthan Courier Crisis HM after update. It is nearly impossible even with my Sin special gear

Tried many times with no succes...

bleh · Jan 27, 2012, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Hi guys, did a quick search figured this was the place to ask..

Just coming back from a break.

How has this update effected :

1) degen damage ( i.e. life siphon, burning, bleeding).
Is it even more useless now? I have always loved degen skills but they havnt been effective (IMO) for a very long time :<.

2) Single target-armour respecting builds/multipule small packet dmg( i.e. OS stone daggers,vapour blade, stoning ect...)
Is this more effective because of the hp change and the new elementalist skills with attribute boosts? or is it still a "level" below an effective AOE build.

I'm currently making a new ele so havn't tested much myself, and i'm also keeping in mind the non-elite updates are still to come.

Chthon · Feb 01, 2012, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleh

1) degen damage ( i.e. life siphon, burning, bleeding).
Is it even more useless now? I have always loved degen skills but they havnt been effective (IMO) for a very long time :<.

Generally, degen is even worse now. As an armor-ignoring source of damage, it takes the full brunt of the hp increase while not benefiting at all from the armor decrease.

Additionally, the fact that most monsters now have less survivability versus typical overall player party damage means that they die faster, so the degen doesn't last as long, and does even less damage.

The small silver lining is that, versus the small handful of monsters that have increased overall survivability, long-lasting sources of degen will last longer and do more damage than they used to. (Although still nowhere near enough to be worthy of making a build around.)

Quote:

2) Single target-armour respecting builds/multipule small packet dmg( i.e. OS stone daggers,vapour blade, stoning ect...)
Is this more effective because of the hp change and the new elementalist skills with attribute boosts? or is it still a "level" below an effective AOE build.

The balance between single-target and AoE damage has not changed in this update. You simply have more viable options for doing either one of them.

Another thing to consider with respect to single-target damage is that Discord still exists. The only thing that makes skills like stone daggers, vapour blade, stoning worth a second look over Discord is the possibility of getting something really fantastic elsewhere in that attribute line.